Berserk

[Mutant]

А что девочка то известно же «не стой под стрелой! В нашем случаи под шпалой

[niseimono]

Теперь вопрос

Пакк  эльф но и  Гриффит эльф только мягко скажем они не похожи дак вот и обедните  мне существуют ли  в мире Бересерка несколько видов эльфов? и встречались ли на протежении манги  (прочёл на данный момент первых три тома ) сородичи  Гриффита или он единственный?

864563[/snapback]

С чего ты взял, что Грифис эльф? :D

[Mutant]

А уши а глаза? И тот факт что он отлечается от любова человека внешним видом? И олн просто авыгледит как самый обычный фентози эльф . Так что я не верю что он человек

[Keishiko]

А уши а глаза?  И тот факт что он отлечается от  любова человека внешним видом? И олн просто авыгледит как самый обычный фентози эльф . Так что я не верю что он  человек

864721[/snapback]

Какие уши, какие глаза? Всё у него нормально и с тем, и с тем. Он просто ОЧЕНЬ красивый человек (пока был человеком, то есть). Но что человек - несомненно.

Эльфов, кстати говоря, в "Берсерке" действительно не один вид, но вторые появятся где-то томе в 15 и будут не совсем настоящими. А эльфов по типу толкиновских в "Берсерке" нет. В принципе.

[Arashi-san]

но и Гриффит эльф

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Что, простите? Вы это... миром не ошиблись? :) Эльфы в "Берсерке" - это маленькие крылатые существа типа Пакка. Гриффит никакой не эльф, слава небесам.

Изменено 17 февраля, 2006 пользователем Arashi-san (смотреть историю редактирования)

[Mutant]

Ну незнаю кто он но он не человек по крайне мери это моё ИМХО

[Keishiko]

Ну незнаю кто он но он не человек по крайне мери это моё ИМХО

865611[/snapback]

Ну, это смотря на каком этапе. ^_^ До Затмения он был вполне себе человеком, а вот потом уже нет...

[VladimirSPb]

Таким красавчиком стал :lol: прям бетмен ;)

[Byakko]

А уши а глаза? И тот факт что он отлечается от любова человека внешним видом? И олн просто авыгледит как самый обычный фентози эльф . Так что я не верю что он человек

Насчёт ушей - у Миуры вообще-то почти все персонажи остроухие, местами даже очень, хоть на того же Гаттса посмотри. =) А глаза - что глаза? Глаза как глаза, просто голубые и пронзительные. =)

 

Вообще Грифис почти альбинос, это бывает - я знала такую девушку - светлоглазую и с практически белыми волосами, бровями и ресницами. А "почти" потому, что глаза не красные, как положено у правильных альбиносов.

[Mutant]

Ладно спорить не буду человек дак человек

[Hellgone]

Ладно спорить не буду человек дак человек

867102[/snapback]

Ну я б не сказал что человек!Таких с яйцами королей вообще нельзя априори назвать людьми ИМХО

[Mutant]

Hellgone

нектоже не может сказать как оно к ниму то попала? Случвйно ли или наследство и знал ли он но последнего что это на самом деле.

[WingedDog]

Посмотрел Берсерка...25 серий подряд и без передыху... мда...ЭХ жаль Гатс не завалил Гриффита еще там, на последней дуэли... И хоть режте меня Гриффит - Г..но, полное д...мо...короче чмо он. Вот. Эх...жалко парня с метательными кинжалами...Жалка Каску...Эх...я бы авторам поставил памятник, а потом бы распял за такой сюжет...И вообще не ясно, как Гатс свалил от демонов?

 

Эх...Блин, зря он меч Зода не взял, порубал бы им всех и вся , а главное Гриффту бы отрезал все что можно отрезать...

 

И вообще, 25 - самая поганная серия...наводит на мысль нарисовать 26, где Гатс все-таки добереться до Гриффита и будет его резать...

[niseimono]

нектоже не может сказать как оно к ниму то попала?

От гадалки какой-то.

 

Очень интересный психоанализ личности Гриффиса на английском by rossoline

I know it's probably reaching to expect anyone to actually read all of this (but I'd really love it if you'd indulge). But, this anime had a huge impact on me, which is why I had to do this write up. So, if you ever find yourself looking for a drawn out and in depth interpretation of Berserk, here it is. I finished the anime about a week or two ago, and have recently started the manga. If this thread actually goes anywhere, I'm hoping there might be some evolution to this interpretation.

 

 

 

It may be stating the obvious, but to me the underlying premise of Berserk basically resolves itself as a meditation on dreams. Not the kind you have at night obviously, but ambitions, and the positive and negative effects that can be associated with them. I'm going to try to deconstruct the narrative through Griffith's psychological persona, since I think the narrative structure is largely a reflection of his dream, hopefully with the most general perspective I can manage.

 

Griffith's character drew me so much back to this excerpt from Karen Horney's preface to Neurosis and Human Development:

 

 

Under favorable conditions man's energies are put into the realization of his own potentialities. Such a development is far from uniform. According to his particular temperament, faculties, propensities, and the conditions of his earlier and later life, he may become softer or harder, more cautious or more trusting, more or less self reliant, more contemplative or more outgoing; and he may develop his special gifts. But wherever his course takes him, it will be his given potentialities which he develops.

 

Under inner stress, however, a person may become alienated from his real self. He will then shift the major part of his energies to the task of molding himself, by a rigid system of inner dictates, into a being of absolute perfection. For nothing short of godlike perfection can fulfill his idealized image of himself and satisfy his pride in the exalted attributes which (so he feels) he has, could have, or should have.

 

 

The story of Berserk has a parable like quality in how the fantasy setting enables Griffith to work himself into that desired subconscious mold of 'godlike perfection' by literally facilitating him with the ability to carry his neurotic ambition to the extremities of it's delusion by actually becoming a godlike figure. Griffith is quite possibly the single most neurotic character I've seen in anime - worse than Shinji even. Of course, externally, Griffith deals with his issues much differently than Shinji does; Shinji is the typical whiney neurotic whereas Griffith is that rare stoic, intelligent psychopath. These type of anxiety disorders are not typically regarded as genetic, but rather usually stem from bad childhoods. In other words, it is considered a healthy part of human development to grow out of them - especially for someone so intelligent and resourceful. But Griffith makes the conscious decision not to do so by desperately clinging to his neurotic fantasy and allowing it to carry him and everyone who attaches themselves to him further down the spiral, and we see the results manifested into the way this ultimately shapes the plot.

 

He is really the most compelling character to me, but I feel like it's too bad we don't get any of his history. We know that he's severely screwed up, but we ultimately don't know why. Where does his reckless ambition come from? Why does he feel like his life is meaningless if he isn't king? We see him at one point contemplate a simple life, but he ultimately can't be contented with that. To me that is one of the few moments when he actually tries to look at himself as a real person, but out of fear he quickly dispels any such notion. We can assume he has never had healthy mutually reciprocal relationships with family and friends through which he could meaningfully learn to identify himself through others love for him. As a result he has externally crafted himself as the very essence of strength and power, but inwardly he is emotionally very weak.

 

His existential crisis is defined by his ignorance of himself; he has no idea who he really is, and out of fear of this creates a false image of himself as king and convinces himself that he must live up to that preconceived notion at any cost. Otherwise he is at risk of being consumed by the void that is his absence of true identity, which is, somewhat unbeknownst to him, probably his greatest subconscious fear. (In the manga, he says '...if you abandon a dream, suppress it in your heart, it's like suicide' - he believes that without his dream he will become nothing and consumed by nothingness.) Actually, I might add that there's an almost paradoxical quality to this deception. I'm not certain whether we can rightfully deduce that Griffith's self-image is either a byproduct or a basis of his loss of true identity. Rather, it's probably a fusion of both.

 

In any case, I would have liked to have seen a little about his childhood to know exactly where he was working from. The only possibility the series allows us to infer is that his childhood may have been similar to Caska's (which is maybe part of the reason he rescued her), but there would have to be something more than that even. The series alludes to Griffith as a child - indeed, the demons show him himself as a child, which is essentially what he is at heart. His dream is ultimately a child's fantasy - a self centered one that doesn't take the rest of the world into consideration the way a responsible adult would. He seeks his personal raison d'etre at the expense of everyone around him.

 

That quest predicated on the expendability of his followers endows him with the prototypical 'vampire' type personality, running the complete polarity of Kantian morality by utilizing everyone as a means for his own ends rather than viewing the relationships he has to be ends in and of themselves. When Zodd tells Guts that if he considers Griffith a friend that it will lead to his death he is warning him how Griffith will eventually suck all of the life (use) out of him and then throw him away, which is ultimately what he ends up trying to do when he makes the conscious decision to sacrifice the hawks. Griffith makes this clear enough when he says that he doesn't consider his comrades to be friends. He has no friends; he is afraid of even trying to make friends and his commentary on how his stature essentially prevents him from doing so is really just lying to himself to mask that fear so that he can avoid dealing with it on a conscious level. When he says that a true friend is his equal it's basically just an extension of that self deception. 'He would fight back even against me', he says. But in his mind he is king - no one could ever be his equal. Guts leaves the hawks, fights back against Griffith, renounces his willingness to follow another's dream and makes it clear that he intends to seek his own. Does Griffith then offer due respect and show his happiness that he's finally found a true friend? Hardly. In the end, Griffith has only his self centered dream, for which everyone is ultimately expendable.

 

Once Guts realizes this by overhearing Griffith's conversation with the princess it becomes, naturally, a turning point for him. Guts comes to wonder how much Griffith's submission to his demons was a result of his departure from the hawks, and it's a legitimate question. Griffith basically perceived Guts as a valuable weapon that was worth risking his own neck for. That's why Griffith dodged the question of why he was willing to risk his life for him. It was just being manipulative - allowing Guts to think that he saved him because he cared about him as a person, or a friend, rather than just a device that was useful (necessary actually) for the fulfillment of his ambition. In that respect, Guts departure was a piece of Griffith's dream, and security, walking away.

 

This leads to his emotional breakdown that cracks his external shell long enough for him to make a fatal mistake. They say the eyes are the window to the soul. With Griffith this is most certainly true. I love how we peer into his intentions through his eyes. This is most obvious when he is glaring at an enemy, or his 'prey', but is most telling when he is stumbling through his deeply rooted insecurities that he's trying so desperately to suppress. Those are the moments when his dream has grown unstable, and he is doubting, which is really unbearable for such a neurotic character. We notice that his eyes are the same when he is tearing at his arms in the lake and when he goes to seduce the princess. These are the moments when his void becomes too much with him, when he starts to face it consciously, and we can see it in his eyes - he is afraid.

 

Along those lines, Guts is probably a big part of the reason why Griffith ponders the possibility of a normal life. Griffith himself says that Guts is the only person who ever made him forget his dream. They could have been real friends, but Griffith (though he may have come close) ultimately never developed enough courage and smudged out the opportunity, and that was a big part of his downfall - he needed a real friend. Part if the reason Guts turns out better is because of his relationship with Caska. Griffith is always off limits to criticism, which allows him to imagine himself as he sees fit, but the way Caska criticizes Guts forces him to introspectively evaluate himself and consciously deal with his negative qualities in ways Griffith never has to. I love the scenes where we see Guts working through his flashbacks of Caska's painful words. He wants to believe she is wrong about him, but her words force him to really reevaluate himself and look at himself honestly and objectively. It is the struggle to identify himself there that shapes him into more of a man than Griffith will ever become. Likewise, Guts response and actions towards Caska afterwards causes her to similarly rethink herself. Through this, they both realize that they've helped each other grow, and as a result feel closer - which is part of the reason they fall in love.

 

Mike asked in another thread if Griffith was really a bad person. I think Griffith is, more or less, a product of circumstance. As mentioned, he probably had a desperate childhood similar to Caska's. Also I would think that receiving the behelit along with the witches prophecy probably had a big impact on him. But I wonder how legit the prophecy was; I'm tempted to see the witch as akin to the oracle in the Matrix - kind of doling out self fulfilling prophecies. After all, we clearly see in the end that Griffith has the ability to turn back, the demons make it clear to him that his destiny must ultimately be the result of his own free will. It's made very clear that he has a choice, and that succumbing to his demons (literally and figuratively speaking) is a product of his own volition. Each episode starts out with an epigraph about destiny. I think this is destiny in the sense that we are inevitably restricted to our cultural and ecological inheritance mixed with our inherent potentialities, and in the case of Berserk, a bit of divine intervention. In this way Griffith plays out a destiny. The thing about being human though is that we have the ability to rise above circumstance, to negate the gods and destiny, and to make our own destinies through our own choices. Griffith has the chance, but ultimately fails to do this. He blindly plays out his role without ever seriously questioning whether he, and certainly not if anyone else was really better off for it.

 

To somewhat briefly touch on how the series deals with the concept of ambition from the other characters perspectives, Corkas says this in episode 19:

 

 

:

A man has to make many compromises in his life because of his personal limits and his responsibility to face up to reality. Only a child can be content with just a dream.

 

 

 

Corkas is directing that at Guts, but I really think it's much more apt as commentary on Griffith. Also, I really think that's some of the best, most practical advice I've ever heard in an anime. It's wise to be honest with yourself about your true strengths and weaknesses. Corkas is essentially just warning of delusions of grandeur (of course, Griffith is 'special' as he says, and I guess is thereby excused). However, I think he, in his jealousy, is selling Guts, and possibly himself, a little short. Applying that advice objectively to your endeavors is one thing, but using it as an excuse for living in someone else's shadow is another. People follow people like Griffith because of the fact that he so blindly believes in his dream that others who aren't as confident or talented see him as a way to hitch a ride to the top. But I think Guts is right for wanting to follow his own motives - except that he doesn't seem to be certain what they are.

 

Because of Guts lack of motive, throughout Berserk, there really is no hero, not until the very end. Heroics, but no hero. Guts eventually becomes a hero by becoming the opposite of Griffith. His ambition becomes to protect the innocent and drive out tyranny, whereas Griffith's ambition had always ultimately been to sacrifice the innocent for the sake of creating what would inevitably become his own tyranny. The irony is that that 'destiny' is no less circumstantial than Griffith's. But that's why I move away from the interpretation of their destinies as absolute. To allude once again to the Matrix, I basically see the God Hands as essentially manipulating humans similarly to how the machines do; setting up the players and playing field and manipulating people with prophecies and all. I use that analogy loosely, but I think it works well enough. It's simply a philosophical step backwards - instead of the machines we have Descartes' malicious demon. Besides, the series wouldn't make such an overt issue of Griffith's free will if it were only incidental. Perhaps Guts was an unaccounted variable for the God Hands and is thereby a legitimate threat to whatever their plans may be, or contrarily, perhaps they were intentionally manipulating these two men to stage a battle between the ultimate hero and the ultimate villain. Of course, I'm not sure I can really back that up either way. Anyway, Guts is really a simple character. He experiences an existential crisis very different from Griffith's. The former simply needs to establish a raison d'etre, whereas the latter has to fight furiously to maintain (or justify) what he perceives to be his inherent god like purpose.

 

I'm really not sure whether the perspective the series takes on Caska is merely a truism, or if it's something feminists would find deplorable. Caska doesn't seem to be even given the intuition (let alone right) to develop her own set of dreams. Her fate is strictly confined to the man that she attaches herself to. Even though she is a warrior, she still gets branded with the condescending label of the Other.

 

When all is said and done, the series shows us that while it's okay to have the ambition to follow your own dreams, it's something else entirely to delude yourself into thinking you are a god among men, or that you somehow 'deserve' such stature. It's at this point that the series starts to brush up against a remark about the nature of history that I'm not sure I can really intelligently comment on. Namely, what about our leaders? Where did the ambition of, say, Napoleon or Alexander come from? How did they rally so many to their causes? These are people who affect society and history significantly, and to some extent perhaps history as we know it has in many ways been merely a byproduct of neurotic ambition.

 

Juuni Kokki has a similar fantasy setting, and is really the complimentary opposite to what is expounded in Berserk. In that anime, we actually see the protagonist learn what it means to be a benevolent leader, which is ultimately to be honest with yourself about your humanity, and accept the flaws and frailty that it entails - something Griffith completely failed to do. The irony is that Griffith must feel like he has obtained absolute power, but in truth he is still just a slave - to a childish notion of destiny.

 

I can honestly say that the ending was a little too brutal for my tastes. I hate what happens to Caska. I hate that Griffith succumbs to his demons and becomes evil. Any notion of justice is discarded in the process of really _REALLY_ driving home how evil Griffith has become. Even when Guts kills the king, it's just not enough. It's not satisfying - there's no salvation, no redemption. Griffith is worse than Shinji because he doesn't even try to look outside of his own fantasy - the culmination of his existential crisis is the deliberate desire to continue the wanton destruction of the people who believe in him. In the end we can only feel sorrow and remorse for everyone, including Griffith. Guts is of course a light in the darkness, but it's hard to feel happy for him considering how tragic a hero he becomes.

 

Оригинал

[Hellgone]

Во блин!Ничо себе постец!

Жалка Каску...Эх...я бы авторам поставил памятник, а потом бы распял за такой сюжет...И вообще не ясно, как Гатс свалил от демонов?

869386[/snapback]

С каской в физическом плане ничо не случится эт я тебе обещаю.Как Гатс оттуда свалил?Читай мангу!Его скелет вытащил.Вот он уже на 269 главе манги преться достать Грифисса и откачать Каску.

По моему конец у манги будет незаурядный вплоть до путешествий во времени!

[Arashi-san]

Очень интересный психоанализ личности Гриффиса на английском by rossoline

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Великолепная статья, большое спасибо. Она прекрасно подытоживает мои собственные размышления о личности Гриффита. Согласна с автором абсолютно всо всех аспектах. Невротичность Гриффита, его эмоциональная уязвимость и постоянный страх перед самим собой, детская зависимость от собственной мечты - всё это действительно так. Пожалуй, это наиболее запущенный (и интересный) случай психопатии, который я когда-либо видела в аниме и кинематографе вообще. Да, очень жаль, что нам не показывают его детства - ведь корни такого глубокого психоза должны лежать именно там.

 

Если кто желает, могу перевести статью, она того заслуживает.

Изменено 19 февраля, 2006 пользователем Arashi-san (смотреть историю редактирования)

[Hellgone]

Если кто желает, могу перевести статью, она того заслуживает.

870763[/snapback]

Было бы прекрасно!А насчет детства возможно Гриффит так и не вырос в интелектуальном плане!То есть так и остался ребенком с мечтой о том что он принц на белом коне!

Ведь он такой и показан.И вечная тяга человека к полету.

Как он сказал насчет крыльев?Правда его мечты таки выполнились!

[Hansen]

Мне мниться что Hellgone немного прав.

 

Грифитс, сволотч конечно редкостная, но по развитию остался тем же ребенком. Отправная точка повествования - получение им красного камня, не получи он его - хрена бы он их собрал

[Mutant]

конечно вопрос сполерный но вылечат ли Каску или она так и дальше будет двинутой ходить?

[DgetNefer]

Arashi-san, просим, очень просим перевести!

 

Mutant, пока она "двинутой" и ходит... Ждем продолжения =)

[Arashi-san]

Ну что, вот обещанный перевод статьи про психоанализ личности Гриффита. К сожалению, не знаю, какого пола автор (хотя мне кажется, что женщина), поэтому окончания личных глаголов ставила через /.

 

Статья длинная - пять страниц мелким шрифтом в Ворде, поэтому выкладываю её приложением. Поправки по переводу принимаются.

griffith.doc

Изменено 21 февраля, 2006 пользователем Arashi-san (смотреть историю редактирования)

[Arashi-san]

Кстати, от себя могу добавить, что Гриффит и Соня всегда казались мне похожими друг на друга. Их эмоциональное развитие находится примерно на одном уровне. Возможно, поэтому Соня так сразу привязалась к нему. Но Соня - ещё ребёнок, её детский эгоизм естественен. В будущем она может его перерасти. Интересно, что в таком случае она будет думать о Гриффите.

[WingedDog]

Господа, )) если Каска жива, а Гатс, без разрыва сюжета свалил - это замечательно (после SecondSight'а я знаю что все лечиться, лишь бы в живых осталась), вот только где бы мне жадному надыбать мангу?

Посоветуйте...

 

З.Ы. Клево было бы закинуть в тот ад Ди))))

[Byakko]

WingedDog, в каком смысле и куда свалил Гаттс? -_- Насчёт "всё лечится" ИМХО даже если Кяске вставят обратно её шарики, ничего хорошего всё равно не будет. Она же девушка изначально психически неустойчивая, а тут такая травма.

 

Мангу качать здесь.

[DgetNefer]

Arashi-san, спасибо за перевод!

Весьма занятно...